Preliminary opinion on that Pray Codex, aka Hungarian Pray Manuscript (the one that is supposed to show the Shroud of Turin)

This is a quickie post, in response to yet another debate (or “wrangle”)  over that Hungarian Pray Codex, and whether or not it shows the Shroud of Turin (complete we are told with L-shaped poker holes).

I’ve already pointed out that what some folk see as the Shroud is nothing of the sort – it is the patterned  lid of a sarcophagus – and the idea that the pattern is an attempt to represent the herringbone weave of the Shroud is interesting. But the lid of a sarcophagus appears in numerous medieval pictures of the Entombment, usually broken up with a pattern to represent some kind of monumental masonry, maybe mosaic tiles etc.

Those who believe the lid is the Shroud then interpret the discarded cloth as the separate head cloth which the Bible said was folded and left in a separate place.

To those who think that, I suggest they take a close look at the following pictures, zooming in on their so-called “head cloth”.  It is much bigger than they perhaps have assumed, extending back towards the angel in a series of folds, decorated with crosses, and ending with a furled end, marked by two wavy red lines. The latter may indeed represent blood, as some have suggested, but the tracking of the blood along the wavy end denotes where the shroud ends – shroud, note, not face cloth.

Image

Homing in on that “face cloth” which I believe represents a shroud.

I’ve blanked out superfluous detail here with a blue marker pen to show what I believe to be the full extent of a shroud in the Pray Codex (shroud, not face cloth), ending in blood-stained folds at the lower left. The fabric is far too big to represent a face cloth, and why would a medieval artist focus on that instead of the shroud?

IMPORTANT: This is not my major SHROUD site.  The current topic there is the detail one can see (or not see) using my new Shroud Scope magnifying glass.

For a lawyerly approach to the Pray Codex, see the site of Stephen E Jones BSc, Grad Dip Ed. (as he signs himself off).

Reminder to whomsoever it may concern (not that it should be necessary):  a lawyer uses evidence to obtain a preferred verdict; a scientist uses evidence to arrive  at the truth.

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About Colin Berry

Retired science bod, previous research interests: phototherapy of neonatal jaundice, membrane influences on microsomal UDP-glucuronyltransferase, defective bilirubin and xenobiotic conjugation and hepatic excretion, dietary fibre and resistant starch.
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23 Responses to Preliminary opinion on that Pray Codex, aka Hungarian Pray Manuscript (the one that is supposed to show the Shroud of Turin)

  1. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    CB, you really should wear/buy ICONOGICAL glasses! BTW my freedom of speech is also restricted on Dan’s blog…. Here what I wanted to reply to your last comments:

    There are nothing more than muddy blabla by a square/rectangule minded scientific eel….
    You only demonstrate, if anything, only one thing: you’re definitely ignorant of medieval standard and artistic licence in Medieval Art. As Stephen Jones would put it, you are one of the archsceptic empty vessels making noise on Dan’s blog.
    You asked me for some iconiographic reference to back up my interpretation of the Pray Ms miniature re the shroud topping the sacophagus;.CANNOT YOU REALLY SEE the rectangular herringboned weave pattern shroud JUST ABOVE/as if topping the sarcophagus in the Lirey Pilgrim badge?

    This is to be related to the “floating” shroud legend. Ever heard of it? In French Medieval literature, see e.g. Perlevaus or the High Book of the Grail.The floating shroud theme also appears in Byzantine literature. Check for yourself.

    Colin Berry, David Mo and LyFe, you really need more than an eye-opener to see!

    Actually, this is not so much the Pray Ms Shroud (lying flat on the sarcopphagus lid) that is rigid than you Colin Berry et al that ARE antishroud psychorigids.

    I do think the greatest irony for an eel is to be psychorigid 😉

  2. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    This is what I would call “Breaking News” from Ignorance & Co(linBerry) illimited

  3. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    Just ask a graphic artist how he would sketchily feature wrinkles and rumples in a lying flat square-topped stepped pyramid weave pattern shroud with on top a rolled up (semi-transparent?) napkin/veil, and you’ll get the answer.

    • Max Patrick Hamon says:

      Correction: I wrote: “…[with] a minimum of iconological vista), you’ll see a wrinkle line and rumples amid the square-topped stepped pyramid weave pattern in connection with the angel’s left foot resting on the SHROUD COVERED SARCOPHAGUS LID. The latter, according to medieval standard can be see EITHER raised up OR just displaced […].”

      To really be aware of what I mean, just ask a graphic artist friend of yours how he would sketchily feature wrinkles and rumples in a lying flat square-topped stepped pyramid weave pattern shroud with on top a rolled up (semi-transparent?) napkin/veil, and you’ll get the answer. Now compare the resulting sketch with that of the miniature.

      From then on, you might well become aware the anonymous minaturist Benedictine monk actually found a rather ingenuous and economic solution.

  4. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    Addition: The relevantsketch shall be a view from above.

  5. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    Your evidencing of the rolled up napkin/veil is FAULTY. YOU REALLY REALLY NEED ICONOLOGICAL GLASSES (after testing your very bad sight to get adaptaters)

  6. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    Even a tiny straw may be a crucial forensic evidence in criminology. Ever heard of criminology Oillboiled?

  7. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    Quite a feast for a “scientist” to be unable to discriminate the Christ shroud (a most famous long piece of linen cloth here lying flat) with a rolled up napkin/veil on top, altoghether pen & ink drawn in a 12th century CE miniature!

  8. Pingback: Shroud Scope 3: Now let’s take a closer look at the wrist – the one with the bloodstain and, supposedly, an underlying nail wound. | Casting a critical eye at that Shroud of Turin

  9. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    You just cannot admit it as it would RUIN your Jacques-de-Molay-tortured-on-a-grate theory. BTW JdM was burnt in a kneeling position at the stake on a little island a liitle off Paris Cardio…. Your ignorance of the subjectmatter is JUST BEYOND LIMITS (“justt fllabbergasting” as you would say). Who is the nut, the simpleton? JUST GUESS?

  10. colinsberry says:

    On his knees you say? How interestiing, given that the figure portrayed on the Lirey badge appears to have lost all the flesh over both knee caps…

    Some believe he represents Jacques de Molay, and that the “Turin Shroud” Mark 1 represented that Knight Templar too, especially as crucifixion was part of his torture in the 8 years he spent in prison, prior to his final slow roasting at the stake. Don’t forget that Geoffrey de Charney was incinerated with him on the same day, and that at least one eminent genealogist belleves that Geoffrey de Charney was the uncle of Geoffrey de Charny.

    There is a credible narrative there if you ask me for how a artefact that initially (and some might say artfully) combined the twin themes of death by burning with death by crucifixion on that tourist souvenir, now in the Cluny museum. Gradually the first morphed into second, with a martyred Knight Templar similarly morphing into Jesus Christ.

    That could have happened under pressure from Church authorities, determined to stamp out any perceived revival of the Templar brotherhood, or in response to pilgrims who did not object to a gradual or even abrupt switch of focus from a Knight to the founder of Christianity.

    I have consigned your previous abusive remarks to you-know-where, and will continue to do so. Folk do not blog to be personally insulted by those pushing their own agendas, I suggest you set up your own blog site if you think your ideas have merit, and are deserving of a wider audience.

  11. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    You bite at the hook CB! The imaginary expert strikes again! Ever think the pilgrim’s badge suffered “a little bit” from its remaining centuries under water in The River Seen? Do you look as young as you were at the age of say 17? Ever heard of TIME and its tourments and the fact one may “LOSE IT”?

  12. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    The Shroud reality is much more than your petty illdocumented fantasianalysis…

  13. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    BTW, one breaking news just for you: the Lirey Pilgrim’s badge is NOT BRAND NEW FOM ITS MEDIEVAL MOLD!

  14. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    My agenda is Archeaological truth: WHAT IS YOURS?

  15. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    I found a graffiti featuring the face of Jacques de Molay by an interplay of light and shade in a lime stoneacques: he had long hair, beard and moustache and a very long twisted nose much like in the 15th century CE xylograpphy. Actually there is even something a litle christlike about it when compared to the Shroud face. This is in total contradiction with a possible identification of Jacques de Molay with the man on Lirey Shroud. I also found an epitaphios graffiti featuring a short-haired bearless Christ en-pied,the size of the Lirey badge front image.

  16. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    The JdM face graffito can be precisely dated in the summer 1308.

  17. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    So can the epithaphios graffito. A pseudo-scholar (an early 20th century playwright and actor) misinterpreted it as “a hung man”…. (in reference to a legend and a play)

  18. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    Meaning misinterpretation, WHY did you blanked out the “large” red spot in connection with the double red rivulet? Trying to wipe out as much as possible of the forensic evidence of your iconographic crime scene?

  19. Max Patrick Hamon says:

    “Blanking it out the empty shroud” with you looks more like “Blueing it out [of nowhere]”

  20. colinsberry says:

    This has just appeared on The Other Site . Thank you, anonymous contributor. It’s nice to feel appreciated just once in a while.

    Pray Manuscript: Thank you Colin and David Mo

    A reader writes:

    Thank you Colin and David Mo. More has been written about the Pray Manuscript in this blog than in all the books ever written about the Shroud of Turin. Thanks to your efforts we now have so much to think about that has never been considered before. Some of it is fact, much of it is opinion, and some of it is mere speculation. Even criticisms of speculation are speculative in some cases. But all of it is a treasure for all of us, skeptic and believer alike. Only good can come from it if we want to know the truth.

    I’m quite sure the Pray Manuscript shows a representation of the Shroud. I think so even more so after reading this blog. But I am enriched by the well thought out skepticism of Colin and David Mo. I can no longer say to others, “Look, see this and that.” I must now also say, “Others think this. What do you think?”

    But why so even more so? Anyway, I agree. It seems so obvious. I was looking at the ocean yesterday. It was so obviously the ocean. Lacking proof, I guess I could have argued that it was maybe a mirage.

  21. Pingback: Yawn: yet another new sighting of the Shroud in medieval art (well, a ‘water stain’ anyway) | The Turin Shroud: medieval scorch? Separating the science from the pseudo-science…

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